How to Build Gospel Culture: A Q&A Conversation

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Sam Allberry
Welcome back to you’re not crazy gospel sanity for younger pastors, we were going to be looking at Second Timothy chapter five today than we realized there wasn’t a second Timothy chapter five. You’re crazy. I love that. But we do have some questions that various folks have sent in. So we’re going to tackle them right if we have anything to say in response to those crossway. Again, giving us such wonderful resources. There’s a book called reactivity by Paul Tripp. And we will think about that as well.

Ray Ortlund
Again, I’m Ray ortlund, with my friend, Sam alberi. We thank every listener for sharing this time with us. We want this to serve you. Well. Now. we’ve plowed through Second Timothy together, we’ve all gained insights, I feel richer, I feel that second Timothy will now be a special book to me as it hasn’t been for the rest of my life today. Right now, in this episode. This is a q&a time. And you our listeners have sent in questions. We thank you for these. And we have seven questions that we’d like to respond to now in our time together. So Sam, why don’t you lead us through these?

Sam Allberry
Yes. So the first question was, how do you lead a staff team in terms of building our Gospel culture? What what does that imply? What should that mean for how you lead a staff team?

Ray Ortlund
What would your first thought be? Sam?

Sam Allberry
My first thought would be that’s a great question for Ray. You’ve led a staff team, I’ve not led a staff team. I’ve led well, people within the staff team, but I’ve not led a team itself well,

Ray Ortlund
okay. Just the first thing that comes to my mind is sit in a circle. Not in rows, in front of a guy at a lectern. But democratize the situation. Everybody at the same level. Everybody seated together around tables are in a circle, and a lot of eye contact. laughter, openness, vulnerability, transparency, humility, enjoying the moment. If, as the shorter Catechism says, man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, then as Augustine and the others have taught us through the years, enjoyment, is the highest form of love. When we come together, and enjoy the Lord, and enjoy one another and enjoy the ministry, that is love flowing out in the power of the Holy Spirit, so create a democratized shared experience of enjoying being together and enjoying doing the work of the ministry. It’s not just a list of tasks.

Sam Allberry
People are not simply there. Because of their work capacities. You people should be feeling valued, esteemed, welcomed, is it fair to say that if we’re not establishing gospel culture in that part of church life, you shouldn’t expect to see it?

Ray Ortlund
anywhere else? Oh, yes, because real Christianity operates from the inside out, never from the outside yet. And so we don’t pose as Christians in hopes to become Christians at an individual level. And in church leadership, whatever happens inside the leadership in that inner circle, that inner ring of, of leadership, influence planning, praying, and so forth, that properly spreads out with, hopefully, healthy and happy inevitability to the entire church body and into the community.

Sam Allberry
So you’d want as as an evidence of that going well, for staff members to feel like they can walk in the light within the status within the staff team.

Ray Ortlund
It’s an essential mark of authenticity. When people feel they have to always have to bring their A game, and they can’t risk admitting weakness and failure. Well, if I understand First John, chapter one, the problem with that leadership culture is it isn’t Christian at all. Just because we’re doing the Lord’s work, so to speak, and planning church services that isn’t necessarily Christian. Yeah. It’s Christian when it’s honest and vulnerable. And there’s a real tenderness going around the circle of leaders. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
That’s good. Hope that helps. The next question. Talks about imposter syndrome. Some, some listeners may not be familiar with that particular wording, but I think almost all of us will be familiar with the concept it’s describing which is, imposter syndrome is describing the experience of feeling as though everybody else belongs here. And I don’t and I’m kind of here because someone was was asleep at the switch. And they’re all going to realize any moment now that I don’t fit in that I don’t belong. I don’t know what I’m doing here. I can’t do this. This is going to be the Sunday they do I discover I can’t preach. I can’t run a staff team. I can’t run a church. A lot of people have that in lots of areas of life. I remember when I when I was first in, in Oxford doing ministry, to university students there, this was in the very early days of Facebook and social media. Yes. That long ago. I remember summer set up a Facebook group that was called, I got into Oxford by mistake. Can I go home now? Please? Wow. And just within the first few days of term starting up, there were hundreds of people in that group. That’s that’s kind of impostor syndrome. It’s common for people in Christian ministry to feel that how do we cope with imposter syndrome?

Ray Ortlund
What would you say? Sam, if you’ve described it so vividly, I think every single one of us understands exactly what you’re talking about. I

Sam Allberry
felt it. I think but it does. It does help that there’s even a name for it means I’m not the only one feeling that way. There’s some comfort in that. And hopefully, for those who are experiencing it right now, our talking about it is an indication you’re not you’re not on your own. If your feeling is I think one of the things that has helped me is to keep coming back to who does who does Jesus see me as being? How does he see me? And, you know, there’s, I think we’ve seen some of this dynamic in Second Timothy, there is a there is a grand juror to who Timothy is as a man that Jesus has put his hand upon, that he’s empathy won’t perceive himself even in his weaknesses. Yeah. And Timothy’s I’m sure reading between the lines is, there’s parts of Timothy that are thinking, I don’t know if I should be here. This, this feels too much for me. And so Paul has seen a fan into flame, the gift that was given me you have believed Yes, you are the real deal. So part of it is is learning to see ourselves in the light of who we are now in Christ. And a very significant part of that is we we must help each other to see ourselves in that light. And to make sure we’re encouraging each other.

Ray Ortlund
It reminds me of a story. My mom told me once about my dad. He was a young pastor at Lake Avenue Church in Pasadena. This was a big church, a lot of significant people. There were faculty from Fuller Seminary, who were members of the church and dad is supposed to preach in that kind of environment, formidable human beings. And dad was not made of titanium. And so one Sunday night they had, they had a morning and evening service. One Sunday night, dad and mom were there. Together alone, a dad was saying, frankly, to her talk about impostor syndrome. Dad said, in his humility, this church deserves a better preacher than I will ever be, I shouldn’t be here. And mom said, Well, why don’t we Why don’t we turn to Jeremiah chapter one and the call of Jeremiah to ministry. So they opened up their Bibles read Jeremiah, chapter one and there they read, The Lord stretched out his hand, he put his words in Jeremiah’s mouth. And mom had the wisdom to say to dad, your mouth, your giftedness, your eloquence, is not really what matters, whose word is in your mouth? That is what makes the difference. Wow. And that helps dad to keep going. And to lay aside this haunting, paralyzing impostor syndrome. I’m,

Sam Allberry
I’m tempted to say right, I think I’m I would trust a pastor more. Yes. Who has imposter syndrome than one who has never experienced it? Absolutely. If there’s a pastor, and it’s never occurred, it never occurred to him once to think, am I the right

Ray Ortlund
guy for this? What am I doing here? Yeah,

Sam Allberry
I’d find it harder to trust such a man. I totally agree. Yeah. So whoever asked that question, I hope a, there’s some some use and the answer to it. But I hope you just feel encouraged the fact that you’re asking it may be actually a sign of your health. Right, in a previous season, we were talking about in our preaching, not just wanting to challenge people, but instead to sort of gospel people into change rather than to sort of push an elbow them into change. And someone has asked if we have any examples of how to do that, and any kind of case studies where we’ve, we’re trying to present Christ to people so that they’re following him, rather than us simply trying to challenge them into changing their behavior or something.

Ray Ortlund
I have so many regrets in this very way, Sam, because although I didn’t use the word challenge. For years, I preached hundreds of the most wretched sermons imaginable that really were of the nature of challenge as opposed to the nature of of promise. And I didn’t realize it. But I was exercising an Old Covenant ministry, when I could have exercised a New Covenant ministry. Challenge is of the nature of law. Promise is of the nature of the gospel. And Jesus fulfilled the love for us, and sends His Holy Spirit now to fulfill it in us. And these are this is, this is not a challenge coming at us. It’s not pressure. It’s not Jesus barking orders. It’s Jesus sending the Holy Spirit having atone for our sins, sending the Holy Spirit to work in us that which is pleasing in His sight. So when I hear Christians describe preaching, and even compliment preaching, as Oh, that was a great challenging message today, pastor I, I feel what a tragedy. I deeply regret it. And here’s Sam, I’m looking at the last two words, in the Old Testament at the end of the book of Molokai, the last two words, utter destruction. That’s where the old Kevin, it takes us, because Original Sin is not going away. And it’s not manageable. By challenge. There’s only one remedy for this impasse deep within us, and that is Grace, mercy and promise in Christ. What are your thoughts?

Sam Allberry
I’m very struck by that. What’s about to say? Yeah, I’ve got an example raised from a few months ago, I preached a sermon and had an opportunity to preach it again, a few days later. And in between those two, those two occasions, I had to redo a whole section of the sermon because the first time I did it, I was trying to challenge people, I was just trying to give them stuff to do. So the passage, touched on on Romans six, verse 13, do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness. but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life. And your members to God is instruments for righteousness. And I preached that as Come on guys, present your your members now the parts of your body, to God to be instruments of righteousness. So you know, what can you do with your hands? What can you do with your eyes? What can you do with your ears? And so on?

Ray Ortlund
All of which is those are great points. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
I mean, it is what the passage is talking about doing. But I was teaching it as a kind of gritted teeth. Come on, guys. And I realized, actually, there’s a far more gospel way of of preaching that because do not present your members to sin. As instruments for unrighteousness, that was what we used to do. Every single part of my body was being presented to sin as an instrument for unrighteousness. I may not have realized that at the time, but that that was what was going on. Isn’t it amazing now, that because of what Christ has done, those very parts of the body we have sinned so egregiously with can now be presented to Jesus. And I was talking to a guy recently who was struggling, because at the time I was chatting to him, he was he was engaged, and he was struggling with the fact that he had sexually sinned. A huge amount in his past was now we believe a believer, engaged a wonderful Christian girl wanting to have a Christ honoring marriage. But he struggled to think about how sexual intimacy could be a sort of a blessing to their marriage, given how much he had sinned in that area. And this, this verse came to mind as I was talking with him thinking, well, that part of the body, however much you have used it to sin, can now be an instrument for righteousness. And I just realized this, this is inviting us into something, not kind of browbeating us into something and

Ray Ortlund
even Sam, as you’re saying that this awareness washes over me of assurance, privilege, newness of life. When that magic starts happening, I know I’m coming under the wonderful spell of the gospel.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, and it’s a it’s a we get to do something rather than Come on guys. We have to do so. We get to offer the parts of our body to God now,

Ray Ortlund
what a privilege.

Sam Allberry
It’s insane. So I think the trouble is, you mentioned when someone uses the sermon was challenging as a compliment. I think it’s because it flatters our flesh. Because you give me stuff to do and I’m up to it.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah, this time I’m going to put Have to the Lord. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
So I hope that helps. I have to I catch myself frequently now and I’m preparing a sermon. Because my first draft will be kind of the kind of common guys let you know. And I have to think, how is Jesus wooing us into living in the way he’s calling us to live?

Ray Ortlund
That is so true to life because I would start my sermon prep on a Tuesday after having taken Monday off, and, and by Thursday, I was finally getting all this moralism sorted out of my system. And Friday morning, I would start actually pivoting toward preaching the passage as gospel.

Sam Allberry
So my goal is I’m not I’m not saying I get anywhere near to, you know, reaching this in my sermons. But my goal is that our hearts are now so captivated by Christ, that our longing is to do whatever the passage is talking about doing. Yeah. So that’s an ongoing, ongoing battle for myself as I prepare sermons. A brother has written asking how do we cope with anxiety and burnout and wanting to quit? And this this dear brother is in that very spot? At the time he was sending that email?

Ray Ortlund
We all go there, don’t we? Yeah, we all understand. And it just so happened, I was so struck by this, I brought my old Bible with me today. And in the back, just inside the back cover was this piece of paper from May 26 1988. When I was tempted to quit ministry, I was so defeated. So disheartened felt like such a failure. And you know, Sam, I really wasn’t very good at it. It wasn’t as though I was facing this terrible opposition that was defeating me. I just wasn’t very good at pastoral ministry. And I didn’t know what to do. But so I actually had a typewriter. That’s how long ago this was. I took out a piece of paper and I wrote out a prayer, a covenant, a commitment I, I literally signed on the dotted line giving this mess over to the Lord. I said, Lord Jesus Christ, believing that true life is to be found in you alone. And obeying your summons to enter the narrow gate and walk the hard path at the end of which alone True life is to be granted. I signed myself and all I have over to you, as best I can in my weakness, earnestly desiring to be found faithful as your disciple and servant at whatever the personal cost. Have mercy upon me. Oh, Lord. Raymond, see ortlund Jr. 26, may 1988. It’s not as though you know, at that moment, the clouds parted and everything the birds began to sing and But Santa, it was a turning point. And a year later, my reality was markedly different. But when I hit rock bottom, the Lord met me there. And hitting rock bottom is not so bad. Because that’s so common. They were Jesus awaits us.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Yeah, that’s wonderful. Right? Would you put that on Instagram?

Unknown Speaker
Seriously, yeah. Okay.

Sam Allberry
I think that would encourage people. All right. I’ll do that. Guys. If you. You know, social media is one of those things. At the moment. I’m trying not to touch with a bargepole. But Instagram is a slightly friendlier neighborhood. And Ray is always encouraging. And if you didn’t know what Nixey looked like this week, they can help you with that as well. There’s a fascinating question. What is the role of church membership in establishing gospel culture?

Ray Ortlund
What would you say about that, Sam?

Sam Allberry
Well, I’ve come from a tradition being an Anglican in the UK, where we’ve not really had a formal system of church membership into a church where we do. So it’s been interesting to sort of compare and contrast. And I’ve realized that one of the, one of the aims of the membership process is to is to invite people into who we are and what we’re about as a church so that there’s a kind of a conscious sense of okay, I am, I am opting into this. And the flip side of that is you’re you’re you’re gently also saying, If this isn’t, if this isn’t your vibe, if this isn’t something you feel you can give your heart to. There may be another church for you that you would feel more at home in it. So the membership process as we as we have it in a manual, it’s an opportunity to talk about the ethos of the church, not just the the technical things that the doctrinal statement but but kind of how we are who we are as a family, the family dynamic, our commitments to one another, our commitments to unity, to explain what what we mean by gospel culture and what we’re wanting to walk in together. Because if someone is looking to join the church and beat some drum about an issue that is not important for every believer, it’s a way of giving them a heads up, it probably just won’t feel at home here. So there’s a sense in which the membership scheme can protect the church, from people who actually might be destructive if they if they joined it. Yes,

Ray Ortlund
you I’m sure would be more diplomatic about that than I ever was. But I did try to I tried not to be discourteous, but I was pretty clear in, in our membership seminars, and I thought of our membership seminars as kind of like, orientation week for a freshman at university. Here’s how we roll, here’s how it works, here’s how this can be great for you and so forth. But I would also say if if this if you need a platform, for your political agenda, or whatever it might be, we just don’t do that around here. Yeah, I would never use the word you like you won’t fit in. Because that would sound belittling and accusing I would use the word we talk about ourselves. We just don’t do that around here. Here’s how we roll and just describe gospel culture in concrete and lovely terms. And I found people really responded to that, because it’s not this, but that sort of almost like before and after picture. Most people if if gospel culture is described in a way that every weekly sermon, for example, just can’t do. But the membership seminars like orientation week for the whole experience. It’s a golden opportunity to disciple, every new wave of members in this glorious reality we love to call gospel culture. And

Sam Allberry
it’s a way of explaining what it means to how we steward one another’s honesty, yes, as a church, but boy, if someone shares something, we don’t throw that back at them. Jesus doesn’t use sin, we’ve repented off to condemn us. So as we confess sins together in this place, we part of what it means to be at this church is that we really honor that. So it’s a way of a step establishing, I guess, some of the ground rules. That’s not the best way of putting it. We know what you mean. Yeah, it gives, it gives people a chance to think like I actually I really do want to be part of that. And then making a conscious commitment to that. It also gives us something to hold one another to shut the time arise where we need to say something if someone is behaving in a way that is seriously undermining that. Yeah. So I think it can really help to have a church membership scheme.

Ray Ortlund
And when I was lead pastor, I always led the new members seminars, because I wanted the people satisfied. They had gotten to know me, yeah, they’d had direct and personal exposure to me. And they had had an opportunity to ask me any question they, they might want. And I always said, our q&a times, here are the ground rules. One, the heart of the question, the better. The more embarrassing the question, the more fun.

Sam Allberry
Someone has asked when they have appreciated, sort of being introduced to Schaefer through the podcast. Are there other good examples from church history of people who seem to embody what we mean by gospel culture?

Ray Ortlund
How about you, Sam, what would you identify?

Sam Allberry
Well, I was thinking about this. And the danger of recommending anyone is that obviously that person has flaws. So we’re not sort of saying everything they did was, was perfect. But I’ve, I’ve, I’ve always found I feel like one of my, one of the guys who would be my buddy is Hudson Taylor. If we were around at the same time, because as I’ve looked at his life and his ministry, he seemed to be someone who obviously was so committed to the Gospel, so willing to put everything on the line for it so willing to suffer, yes, and to be embarrassed back in his home country by his commitments of the gospel, but he struck me as someone who was fun to be around.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, for those of us who don’t know what would be his Hudson Taylor’s approximate dates,

Sam Allberry
so he founded the what was then the China inland mission in 1865. So I can’t remember his date of birth or his date of death, but that was sort of the That was the beginning of his of that mission organization under his leadership so that that’s the sort of time we’re talking about. But I had an opportunity. When I graduated from seminary, one of my treats to myself was to spend a day at the Hudson Taylor archives, oh, interest at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. Wow, we’re all of his stuff is archived, and I had a few hours and access to his letters. So I read letters from around 1865, when he was forming the China inland mission, much of it was formed on the hoof it was stuff on the back of an envelope as he was on a boat somewhere in deep inside China. But a lot of the letters to his wife, Maria. Were so edifying, so affectionate. Again, you got the sense he, he was someone who wanted people to feel, to feel loved to feel known Yes, to feel encouraged in the Lord. And he just seemed to have a good sense of humor, too.

Ray Ortlund
That reminds me of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. There’s a paragraph in one of his it may have been lectures to my students, where he describes a pastor, as sort of like a bay or an inlet where ships can come in and be sheltered from the surging waves further out at sea, they can come in and rest and be safe. And he said, a pastor wants to have as big create as big obey, as he possibly can for as many ships to come, as and be safe and rest, and rethink life and so forth. And that is a beautiful image to me, of a pastor. This is this is talking about a pastor, interacting with people face to face. After the sermon is and is completed, the service is over. He’s meeting people for the first time he’s seeing old friends as well. He’s having a lot of rapid fire interactions, right? You know, it goes. And in each one, the pastor is alert to the moment and sincerely feeling affection and care for each person, as an individual. And his heart is large enough for those people to come in and be enclosed and made safe and included. That kind of big hearted pastor, that that sort of personality, that sort of sincerity and selflessness and others awareness, that sensitivity at the heart of a church that has power to set the tone of the entire church.

Sam Allberry
Wow, I love them. Here’s the final question. We’ve got how, how do you deal with criticism? What is the gospel Kultury way of coping with criticism? Wow, just in case any pastor at some point ever received criticism that happened that could one day happen to someone really?

Ray Ortlund
Hmm. Interesting. I guess I heard about that once. Yeah. What would you say? So?

Sam Allberry
I think that there are probably a few things to do all at the same time. One is to think through. Is there some? Is there a good point in the criticism? And loads? Is it a fair criticism? And here’s the thing, there may be a fair criticism that is being expressed really unfairly. So the unfairness of the expression, doesn’t mean there’s not a good point in there somewhere. Even if the person is being insensitive or intemperate or something like that. It’s always worth asking the question. Even so, do they have a point? I mean, really? Do they have a point? Second thing, whether the answer to that is yes or no. We’re always far worse than they actually think we are. That’s a good point. So let’s not be resentful that someone might criticize us because actually, even if, even if the criticism is unfair, the fact remains, I’m still far worse than they think I am. I mean, really. And I guess not to, not to take it personally, even if it’s meant personally, is to think okay, and Second Timothy is helps with this because even when he’s talking about people who might be opposing you, or needing correction, there’s always that, that dimension of compassion for them, wanting what is going to be a good spiritual outcome for that person. So even if they’re coming at me with with fists, you know, flailing around and all the rest of it. How might the Lord use this interaction? To be a spiritual when? For their life?

Ray Ortlund
That’s really good.

Sam Allberry
So rather than how can I, you know, just defend myself is, is there a way I could help them in this?

Ray Ortlund
I think I think There is a you realize, do you realize what you just said there is a nobility about you? That is very striking.

Sam Allberry
I can say I do all of that. Not just that. That’s what I feel like I should do in that in that moment.

Ray Ortlund
I understand. Yeah, here’s me. This is crazy. Let me propose this. We should seek out criticism. Yeah, in the sense. There is no growth without feedback. Yeah, no one grows. Without feedback. My dad used to say, every man who wants to grow in Christ and bear fruit and go somewhere, needs one or two, maybe three close, trusted friends with whom he meets on a regular basis, not every two or three years. And to whom that man says, helped me see myself helped me see myself that is the magic question. new avenues of growth open up when we have the humility and honesty to say that to guys, we really trust. You don’t say that to just anybody. Yeah, but do a SAM alberi in my life? How could I not say that? So if a pastor is unwilling to pull toward his heart and into his life into his intimacy, trustworthy, mature friends, to whom he can say, help me see myself, I’ll tell you, that pastor who is so isolated, and insecure, five years from now, there’s a good chance he won’t even be in ministry anymore, maybe two years from now? What path? Are we moving down? All the time?

Sam Allberry
Two things struck me about that. Ray. One is you’ve said that to me many times, what am I not seeing in myself? And one of the things that I’ve I so appreciate about you asking some of us that question is you’re in your early 70s, mid nearly 70s. You’re not presuming you’ve, you’ve got a handle on yourself yet. You’re not presuming you’ve kind of Yeah, of course, I know where my strengths and weaknesses are. You’re, you’re assuming there are still things in yourself you might not be aware of, that could be relevant in ministry. The other thing that strikes me about that is it’s going to happen one way or the other. Yeah, that’s true. Do you want the controlled explosion, when you’re ready for it, or the uncontrolled explosion when you’re not ready for it?

Ray Ortlund
That’s a great point.

Sam Allberry
So if you can be thinking, Okay, here’s a time and a place where I can feel emotionally ready with a trusted friend where it’s going to be a constructive process. Hey, I might, you know, might be difficult conversation, it’s never going to be fun having that conversation, but it can help you grow and learn and move forwards. Better to have it done that way. Through a friend who’s got his arm around you at the time, then someone who’s just trying to tear strips off you. And

Ray Ortlund
if it’s mutual, yes, everyone in that circle is saying the same. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
And it has to be mutual. Yes. Otherwise, it just doesn’t work. As part of what makes me trust someone to give me feedback on myself is it’s a it is a two way thing.

Ray Ortlund
If that were to go viral among Christian pastors, in the UK, in the USA and elsewhere, this kind of vulnerability, transparency, humility and openness with one another, mutually in small groups of two, three and four men. That might be the very thing to detonate the third great awakening. Yeah, we would all go further with the LORD than we’ve ever gone before. Further than we’ve ever dreamed of going. The Lord would honor that. Sam, thank you for letting me be involved in this podcast. Thank you. I’m so grateful to you. We’re grateful to our listeners and our friends and may maybe the best way to end the same is for you just to pray for us all. Would you do that?

Sam Allberry
I would love to Father, any any ministry, in any context, for you is a privilege. And it’s something we we don’t deserve to do, but we somehow get to do and we pray particularly for those who are serving in their local congregations as pastors as leaders as elders. Father, please encourage every single one of us, encourage us in Christ. Would he be an encouragement to us as we keep looking to Him? Father, I pray that every single one of us would have two or three really trusted friends that we can be open with friends who can say occasionally difficult things to us. Friends that we can be honest with friends who will stand by us in our ministries for the Bodek gift that is please help each of us To seek that out, not to be about needing it and not to be fearful of it. And Father, we’ve we’ve talked about our longings for another great awakening we we so long that the goodness and sweetness of Jesus would go viral. Farther, we don’t want that to happen in a way that makes us look self important and ahead of the curve and all the rest of it. We we just longed for Jesus to be made known. So we pray that he would be and may we be forgotten. And we pray in His name. Amen. Amen. Right, who else is in the room with us right now?

Ray Ortlund
Well, Andrew Lapera is right over here. technical genius. And Darius, What’s your last name? Darius, Darius Kennedy. And these two guys have quietly behind the scenes served us and then Becca is in the next room. What is Becca’s last name? Becca Warren, she has been the most cheerful presence, looking after us and in a very kind and delightful way. So, guys, thank you so much. All the listeners are grateful for you.

Sam Allberry
It was so grateful to TGC for, for helping us to have a podcast, very kind of them to host this and to support that. We’re grateful as always, to crossway. And as always, we want to highlight good examples of their work. And I’m trying to find the list. I have a pile trip pull trips, book reactivity. I’m just looking for the subtitle reactivity

Ray Ortlund
reactivity. Does he mean by that?

Sam Allberry
Here it is. Reactivity how the gospel transforms our actions and reactions. Now you endorsed this but I endorsed this book. So it’s been a while since I read it, it came out back end of last year. It’s a shorter book Paul is looking at. He’s particularly looking at the phenomenon of why do we react the way we do particularly in in context like social media, there’s this sort of reflexive impulse that is often a little bit of right. So being a portrait book, it is practical. It is infused with the gospel. It is written. Paul just knows our hearts because he knows his own heart. So that’s a bit we would love to we would love to commend it will help us to be wiser in the words that we use in the ways that we respond to people around us. But we’re so grateful to Paul for his his writing ministry. And we’re grateful to crossway for the support of this podcast. And to you dear friends, for listening and for bearing with us over these episodes of this season. Thanks to those of you who who come and say hi to us when when we’re out and about and you it’s always a joy to meet people who who listen to this. God bless you