Women, Cultivate Your Leading and Teaching Gifts

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Jen Wilkin
So I’m so glad to see all of you here today. It’s a thrill to see this room packed with women, it just truly is. And are you having a positive experience thus far at the gospel coalition conference? Yep, it’s a good one for sure. My question would be, how many of you by show of hands? No, you’re tired of raising your hands, but just tolerate me for just a moment? How many of you are leading in some capacity in your local church? Okay, fantastic. How many of you are teaching the Bible in your local church or are overseeing spaces where the Bible is taught? Praise God, that is magnificent. Well, what I want to do in the time that I have today, and I’m going to be a good girl, I’m supposed to finish on time. So let me just eyeball the clock. Because if the q&a doesn’t happen, and it’s my fault, I’m pretty sure that there will be a special penalty for me afterwards. So what I want to talk to you about today as a roomful of women leaders, or maybe future women leaders is how important you are to the church. And when I see say how important you are to the church, I don’t mean that you’re a nice addition, should you decide to show up. What I mean is that the contributions of women in the local church are nothing less than essential and indispensable to the mission of God. So if you came in here today, tired, should we have that show of hands. If you came in here today, frustrated, if you came in here today, just not sure whether you should keep going. Or if you do keep going, how you should keep going, then I hope that this will be a time for you to feel some refreshing and encouragement from me, but also from the Lord. My experience in the local church has been long and varied, it has taken many forms. I don’t know how many of you know, but about a week and a half ago, I stepped back from my role at my church that I had been in, I’d been in various roles of the church for 12 years, serving on staff, and I’m 54. And it felt like it was a good time for me to start refocusing my energies on other things. But I’m still teaching in my local church, I’ll still be serving in a number of ways just as a volunteer now, but the vast majority of my time in church service has been as a volunteer, not in full time vocational ministry. And can we see that show of hands? How many of you are serving in a volunteer capacity in your church? Well, thank you. Let me just hear it from me. First, thank you for the work that you are doing. I know the time that you put in and the care that you give to something expecting no compensation. But my hope is that for some of you, there will be compensation because it’s very good for the church to dignify the work of women. But I also know, if you’re like me, you would you would do this no matter what. And you probably have done this, no matter what. So what I would like to do today, for those of you who are doing ministry in the local worker who are in local churches, or maybe thinking about that is I want to do several things, I want to give you permission. First of all, I want you to hear very clearly the importance of you doing the work that you do. I want to give you tools, I want you to recognize that there are ways forward for you that you don’t have to feel like you’re doing this alone. I want to give you confidence, I want you to know that you can do this, in fact, you must do this, this is something that if you don’t step forward, and it doesn’t happen, then the church is poor for it. And then I also want to offer you a little bit of companionship, you’re not weird. Actually, you may be weird, that’s not on me. But in, in the loving of doing the work of the Lord on behalf of women in particular, in the local church, you’re not weird, you may feel weird sometimes because you care about things that other people don’t care about, or you see issues that other people don’t see. And so I just want you to hear it from me, I know what that feels like. And you should not feel that way. And in fact, this is a room where I bet if you could have conversation with the people around you over a lengthy period of time, you would think oh, this is this is the way we all feel. And yet we step forward and hope that there’s good work to be done and that we are the people to do it. So what my hope is and what the hope honestly of Lifeway women is and lightweight women Academy as is that we would give to the church mothers and sisters, but not just mothers and sisters with mothers and sisters who are skilled at their calling, that feel equipped for the task in Matthew chapter 1246 through 50. And that same story repeats in Luke chapter eight. Jesus is talking to the crowds. And here let me just read it to you starting in verse 46. In Matthew chapter 12, it says, while he was still speaking with the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to him. Someone told him Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you. And he replied to the one who was speaking to him, who is my mother and who are are my brothers and stretching out his hand toward his disciples. He said, Here, my mother, and my brothers, for whoever does the will of month of my Father in heaven, is my brother, and sister, and mother. Now is Jesus diminishing the importance of his natural born nuclear family? Know what is he saying, He is giving them a beautiful vision for the true and better family. And that is the family of God. That is the family that you were meant for. It’s the family that you were built for. Now, you may have a very positive connection to your family of origin. And I hope that you do. If you do, then everything that is good about your family of origin is better in the family of God, you may have a very negative association with your family of origin. And I have good news for you. Because everything that is broken in your family of origin is better and whole in the family of God. Now, it doesn’t mean that this side of glory, everything is whole and better. But that is our calling is to live toward Kingdom citizenship even now, which means that each of us thinks have our own role to play in the true and better family of God. And in this room, you have the distinct role of being a sister to brothers and sisters. And for those of us who are a little further along, I’m still trying to work my way into being comfortable with this, a mother to spiritual children who are coming along behind us, one of the things that I love about this beautiful imagery of family is that it means that there is no such thing as childlessness among the family of God. All of us have someone we can look toward and say, I can bring you along, I can be a spiritual mother to you, there will be fruitfulness and multiplication among the family of God. And so, when you think about the way that the scripture thinks about mothers and sisters, you probably remember in First Timothy chapter five, where Paul tells Timothy, that this is the way he is to think of older women. And how is it think of older women as what mothers think of younger women as sisters, that’s the way that he is supposed to treat them. And then we hear the similar language for brothers and fathers. And so when you think about what that looks like, we’re talking about showing honor to someone. But if you think about natural brother, sister relationships, or natural child parent relationships, it’s not holding someone at arm’s length. It’s drawing someone near. And so that’s what we want the family of God to be characterized by. And when you think about the New Testament, one another’s, of which there are quite a few, what are they asking of us, they are asking us to live as brothers and sisters with one another. Think about how the Bible shows us brother sister relationships. Think about Genesis chapter four, where we see the first siblings, it’s not a great picture of human relationships, Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, Jacob sons, all 12 of them kind of a train wreck, Rachel and Leah. And so when I tell you that we’re built for sibling hood within the family of God, I think it’s important for us to step back and think of not perhaps our own experience of sibling hood, which may have looked more like the stories that I just told you, although I hope none of you has committed a homicide against your earthly sibling. But think about if you have a sibling, and if you don’t have a sibling, think about the person who is most like a sibling to you. What is your most positive memory of that? Like what’s the best sibling memory that you have? Several come to mind. For me, I have all brothers. But I remember the year after my parents divorced the Christmas after my parents divorced my brothers through a paper route to earn very little money, which they saved up to buy me a doll that then they knew that I wanted and opened it on Christmas morning. These are the same brothers who used to lock me in a closet, hold me down and dangle spit over my face. But when we think about what it means to be the family of God, we don’t think about our human associations have broken or less than ideals, relationships, we think about what it could be like, what it has occasionally been like. And so as sisters and mothers in the church, when you come to your work, you’re thinking, how can I bring that sweetness to the family of God? How can it be the relationship that someone has longed for their whole life? How can it be that meaningful connection?

Now, when we talk about the family of God, we should understand that the families in our churches need the church to be the family of God. We should understand that single people need the church to be the family of God. And yet we live in a day and age that says that’s not actually possible, but we know that it’s possible. Do you know how we know? Because Romans chapter 16 shows us that it’s possible. You’re familiar with Paul’s words there. You don’t even have to turn there. But if you want to, it’s kind of fun to skip through and pick out the names of the women and the way that he speaks of them. So in verses one and two of Romans 16, he greets Phoebe and he says our sister, the benefactor of many, and then in verse three, he greets presa, who he describes as a co worker who risked her neck. Another word for co worker is a colleague, colleague. That’s a beautiful thing for a brother to call a sister. Or how about Mary who has worked very hard for you who he’s mentioned in verse six? Or how about Junia and verse seven who is noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles? How about my favorite New Testament twins try fina and try fossa somebody in here name their daughters try Fina. And trick No. While there’s still time. Try fina and try fossa who worked hard in the Lord. He says, verse 12, is the one that really just gets to me. He greets persists, who worked very hard in the Lord. But he calls her my dear friend persists, my dear friend persists. Verse 13, Rufus is mother greet her as my own mother, he says, and then Julia and Nereus is sister. So if I were to ask you to pull up the website of the average church, would you see a similar listing there? This is why I know that for many of you in this room, it’s lonely work to be a woman doing women’s ministry or some other form of ministry in the local church, whether it’s volunteer, or compensated, because what we see here can feel to us almost like an idealized list, how could Paul possibly have known that many women in whose growth he was invested in whose work he could celebrate because he knew it well enough to celebrate it. But I think what we can take from Romans chapter 16, is we can dismiss once and for all, that the work of women among the body of Christ is not nice, but not necessary. It is essential and indispensable work. And it has worked for which we would want to be trained. We want to be trained for it. I hope that one of the reasons that you’re here at TGC is because you know that this is a starting point for some really important training, that the people that you’ll hear, give messages, or the books that are in the bookstore, are a wealth of resources for you. And my hope for you would be that what you gain here, you will take home to your local church, and you won’t hold for yourself. But you will get into a group with others who you can have good conversations with brothers and sisters, doing the work of ministry to women has been so much richer for me when I had dialogue partners who were both male and female. And so I would say if there is someone in your local church, or there is a group of someone’s in your local church with whom you can gather and have those dialogues, you’re going to recognize how it changes and enriches your understanding of the Scriptures, your understanding of ministry, and how you can serve. Specifically, I want to speak now to the women who are teaching in their local church, although there is a message here for those who are leading as well. Why does God’s word charge women to teach other women? I would imagine, each one of you in here could probably quote Titus to older women or to teach what is good. But why do we even need that? I mean, if there’s good preaching from the pulpit, you know, then again, aren’t we back to the nice but not necessary category? Like Sure, go ahead, have your little pink area of the church where you teach your pink things, it’s fine. Well, here are some very important reasons for you to do the very good work and to do it extremely well. First is because women need the example of other women teachers. If there’s one thing I can say, after teaching the Bible to women for a period of almost 30 years now, it is that your love of the scriptures is contagious. It is absolutely contagious. Like it is important for you Good grief. It is important for you to be a good exegesis of the text that you are teaching. But when you break down at the beauty of God’s word, or at the conviction of God’s word, which honestly is just awkward when you’re teaching through the passage, and you’re like, wow, I need to repent in front of a whole roomful of people right now. But this is what is so meaningful to these women. It’s one thing to be able to teach the Bible it’s another thing to be able to teach the Bible to women. Do you hear the difference there? One is a skill and one is a ministry. I’ve often thought I could pretty much teach anything. Like, I’m probably one of those people who could have been a sales person. I could my favorite job I had before I taught the Bible was I was a tour guide at Texas a&m. I could walk backwards, and I could make that Kool Aid and I could serve it up. I was not just drinking it. And I loved it. Because it was a place that I cared about. It was a message that I cared about. And now you’re like, was she in a cult? We’re not really sure. Don’t feel like you need to look into it any further than what I’m telling you right now. But then, there it is. We’re fine. Then I started teaching the Bible and I realized, no, this is the message. This is the message. But at first I just had a skill. And then I heard the stories of the women that I was teaching. And I knew that it was unforgivable to stand up and think that a good execution was all that was required of me. And so my prayer for you would be to give the example to these women, a being a woman teacher, rightly dividing the word, but not merely that be someone who cares about the women who you are teaching who knows their stories, and who knows exactly where they are, so far as it’s possible for you. So women need the example of other women teachers, they need to see you love it before they can picture themselves, loving it the way that you do. Second, women need the perspective of women teachers. They need our perspective. Let me just ask you, how many of you have heard a sermon over Rahab? May one, there’s a couple there’s a few few brave guys out there want to tackle that one? How about Tamar and Judah? Anyone? Okay, a few. All right. But do you see how the vast majority of the women in the room don’t hear these stories told both of those women are in the genealogy of Jesus. Right? The way that I think about the story of Bathsheba is different than the way I sometimes hear it taught by male teachers. And I don’t necessarily need to say that the male perspective is wrong. But I do think that the shared perspective we can all bring to things is what brings alive the meaning in the text. And so you’re going to teach the story of TMR with greater sensitivity to who is hearing it than might happen in a Sunday sermon. And that’s because a Sunday sermon is up against a whole set of challenges in a very broad room. But women who are teaching the scriptures to women do have a special space where they can slow down and take their time, but difficult passages, not every passage is going to need to have some particular care given to it. But in when there are particular passages that do you’re able to slow down the number of times that I heard the stories of the patriarchs told and the whole infertility theme just kind of like popped by this fast. Well, in a women’s setting, you’re able to explore that and ask what is and what isn’t going on in these stories? How should it hit someone who’s dealing with an issue of infertility? So just some simple things like that. Women need the perspective of women teachers. We are embodied females together in this we walk through the world a little differently than men do well a lot differently than men do. My husband, Jeff is actually sitting here in the room, and he’s about six foot four. And I asked him one time when you walk down a dark alley, what are you thinking? And he said, Where did I park? said no, that is the wrong answer. What are you thinking? And he said, I’m hungry?

Do you see what I’m saying? We have a very different lived experience. There is a reason that on Mother’s Day, we take great care talking about motherhood, and on Father’s Day, we kind of go right past it. I mean, seriously, men do not bear in their bodies, some of the things that women do. And so when we teach the scriptures, some of some of that will come to bear on the way that we open them up not not perhaps in dramatic ways to completely alter the interpretation of a passage. But again, there’s a lot of care that can be given to women, when women teach the Scriptures. And then third, women need the empathetic authority of women teachers, the empathetic authority of women teachers. In other words, I am someone who can say to you, Hey, I’ve been there in a way that perhaps a man cannot. There will be many ways in which men can do this, as well. But there will be some ways in which only a woman can speak to another woman about what she’s dealing with in a particular search. From stance or in a particular moment in her life. So these are all ways that the work that women are doing in the local church is not just a nice add on, if it’s something we can give time to the work of mothering, think about the nuclear family. Imagine the tragedy of a motherless home. We don’t want our local churches to be homes that are motherless. And what I see before me is a room of women who have all either already risen up to the role, or who are thinking, I just saw my first gray hair, maybe it’s time for me to start moving that way. It’s okay you can you can die at a different color. But you still have to own when you’re further down the road than the woman who’s coming along behind you. And so my prayer for each of you today is that you would understand the great rich and important calling it is to be a woman who is leading in the local church, dealing with some of the tenderest if disclosures that can come forward, drawing women into conversations that they will think they are not smart enough to have or that they’re not capable of having inviting them into a thinking faith as well as a feeling faith. All of these are great gifts that this room can bring to the local church, the work matters, the work must be done for the Great Commission to go forward as it was designed to go forward. So my prayer for each of you is that you would take competence in the work that the Lord has given you to do. And that you would be equipped for the work that you would find the resources that you need, and we’re creating them for you all of the time. Every woman you’re going to hear from today knows exactly how this feels, and is working like crazy to make sure that it’s easier for you than perhaps it was for us. But my hope for you is that you will keep going knowing that the work is good and meaningful, and that the household of God thrives when its mothers and sisters are eager for the task, can I pray for us? Heavenly Father, I thank you for this room, I thank you for women who are willing to take on the joyful burden of service in the local church, and to serve in ways that only women can serve in. We’re not interchangeable with our brothers, and with our spiritual fathers. We don’t want to be we’re grateful for the good work that you give us. And we pray, Lord, that You would help us to labor as unto you, give us compassion for the women who sit in the seats in our churches, give us an eagerness to hear from them, and an eagerness to show them the truth of your word. And to point them toward the God who supplies all their needs. We ask these things in Jesus name, amen.

Elizabeth Woodson
Thank you, Jen for just such an encouraging word about how our work in the church is essential. And how it is not optional for us to show up to these spaces. But we also know that the work is not easy. And so we are going to spend some time talking about the experiences that we as Bible teachers and women who have worked in the church have had and so I want to start us off with this question. We’re just gonna jump right into it. And, Courtney, I’m gonna give it to you.

Courtney Doctor
I don’t have a mic. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1
How have you dealt with opposition as you have led in your church ministry, because many times we know that the difficulty comes from obstacles in our way. And the obstacles can sometimes very hard for us to overcome, I think it depends

Courtney Doctor
on where the opposition comes from, where it’s where you know, where you’re hitting against it, if it’s opposition from leadership, then I encourage a lot of prayer and a lot of conversations, a lot of moving towards a lot of building trust, building relationships. And so that takes time. And that takes a lot of hard work, if the opposition is, is coming from a peer or somebody you’re trying to minister to sometimes you can reach out and get help in that and have somebody speak into it. Because I think we do need to be honest, that not all opposition, the fault belongs to somebody else the opposition can sometimes be because we need the opposition, and the Lord is going to use it to refine us. And so I think whenever we have criticism or opposition to hold it before the Lord and ask him, What do you have for me and this What are you teaching me? Well, how are you changing and and sanctifying? Me?

Elizabeth Woodson
Melissa, how about you?

Melissa Kruger
I would say one thing that I feel like sometimes I’ve experienced which you may have as well is just the opposition of opportunity. And some of this is trying to figure out your own gifted this Jen and I were talking about this earlier. I actually says becoming a Christian at like 14 I always had the opportunity to teach which have no idea what I said, when I was leaving Bible study when I was 16, who knows what was said that was probably not a good opportunity that I had. But what I’ve learned as I’ve grown in my faith, is that some of the very things that I love to do, which are ideating, and vision, casting, and all of these things, it has been very hard within the church context to find opportunity for that. And so at times, I’ve been left wondering, is something wrong with me? Why do I have all these ideas? What am I supposed to do with them? So it’s even knowing what’s the correct pathway. But I would also say I’ve had probably opposition from my own expectations. And I would say I have at times bought into the lie of what a cultural Christian woman should look like, more than what a biblical woman should look like. And so I’ve really had to self adjust and say, Is this what my Christian culture is telling me? Or is this what the Bible is telling me, and I’m gonna listen all day long every day to what the Bible is telling me. But I’ve had to kind of really check myself on am I just checking a cultural Christian box? And that’s been helpful for me,

Speaker 1
Jen, you’ve had the opportunity to work with lots of different teams and lead teams. And so sometimes, the opposition we can experience come from the people around us. How have you navigated that as a person who’s led teams, but also a person who’s been on teams? Well,

Jen Wilkin
I was your boss, would you like to tell anybody how that went? Well.

Elizabeth Woodson
We had a great relationship.

Jen Wilkin
We Yeah, we did. Actually, it still feels like it’s gone pretty well. Do you think it is? It is? Yeah, you know, so much of it depends on personality, I think, when you’re when you’re leading teams, and I have a tendency to talk first and ask questions. Second. And so through the years, I’ve learned that when someone says something that I think it’s going to be like a challenge to what I am wanting to see happen, that my first response shouldn’t be a statement, it should be a question, like, try to listen to learn what what they’re really after. Because, honestly, you know, how when someone has a personality that’s different from yours, and you’re like, well, your personality is actually just worse than mine. It’s not just different. Anyone who’s like me, that’s the personality I want to work with. And you know, you can’t build teams of people who are all exactly like you, well, maybe you could in the New Jerusalem. But so much of it is getting past your initial perception of someone finding shared connection points, and then finding ways to work together based on what you do share, or after you’ve built personal trust with someone, then having the conversation you need to have about what you’re wanting to see done, where it’s based on trust and relationship and not just on your position in the, in the org chart, so to speak. And I think in the local church, this is really important, because we’re not a business. You know, we are, we’re a ministry. And so if we don’t first see the person sitting across from us, then the likelihood that we’ll be able to partner in a meaningful way is in a Christian way, is pretty low.

Elizabeth Woodson
I think over the years, I’ve learned that that process of seeing the person is not as quick as we would want it to be, and having community around me to help me point me in the right direction to help clarify Elizabeth, this is really what the goal is, or just to remind me that I need to pray. And then I need to pray for this, this ability to persevere through the difficult seasons. And so Rebecca, as you think about kind of your experience, as a leader, your experience with the church, what formative experiences have helped you learn how to persevere,

Rebecca McLaughlin
I just want to say I didn’t choose the pink seat, I just want to put that out there. Now, I would have been so much happier on a blue seat. I think for me, so I write about a bunch of controversial stuff, because Jesus says a bunch of controversial stuff and you know, can’t be helped. But but for me, I I’ve been a Christian for pretty much as long as I can remember. And growing up in the UK, those who cannot discern from my accent, I’m not from these climes. I was just always in environments where almost nobody else was a Christian. And so most of my conversations with friends, I also I realized from an early age that being a follower of Jesus includes wanting to tell other people about Jesus, like there’s no way to be like all by myself, private person or follower of Jesus. It’s got to be in the family of God. And it’s got to be something where you’re, like, desperately trying to bring others along with you. And so it was super formative for me just throughout my, you know, late childhood, early teen years, late teen years 20s to just be surrounded by people who thought the Christianity was crazy. And, you know, very smart, very kind, thoughtful people who had really good reasons for not even considering Christianity. And I mean to sort of start there and try try to explain to them as best I could, why actually, I thought Jesus made more sense of the world than anything else they would ever encounter.

Elizabeth Woodson
I think that having to constantly go back, and the process of learning and how that forms us, and forms things in us that we wouldn’t have unless we stayed in. And I think that’s the thing about perseverance, is it’s a skill or muscle we don’t get unless we stay in the heart place. And a lot of times, the easy answer is to exit and it’s like, know what God’s calling you is to stay. How about you, Melissa? What has helped shape perseverance and you? Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
actually, one of my mentors, when I was in high school said to me, don’t go up on stage and tell people what you’re not living in private. And that what she wanted was a real relationship with the Lord that was flourishing, so that you’re always giving out of what you’re receiving. And that has stayed with me, because I think the only way we’re going to persevere is if our strength is in the Lord. And it’s so tempting to try to be strong in our own selves. But I think all of us will face places a ministry will, you will feel maybe more lonely than you felt in any other time in your life. And that is an opportunity for the Lord to meet you, like no one else can. And so keeping that relationship robust, I think that’s where we grow strong is because he empowers us to do what he’s called us to do. And if we’re not doing that, we’re gonna find ourselves constantly exhausted, constantly worn out. And you may feel that even if you are spending time with the Lord, or at least I do, maybe I’m doing it wrong. But if we don’t have that nourishment from him, we’re never going to be able to give it to others.

Elizabeth Woodson
Either Jen or Courtney.

Speaker 1
Because I think sometimes like the loneliness and the the length of time, that we can be in a space. When we come to the other side, and we see what God has done through the season. Sometimes I think that gives us energy for the next time we find ourselves there. So do you guys have a story about maybe an experience where man I stuck in this place, and I saw God do something I wasn’t expecting him to do and how that’s encouraged you for future ministry.

Courtney Doctor
She’s asking us because we are the oldest to up here.

Jen Wilkin
She also knows my answer to this question. They knew givers. When I came to the village church in 2007, they did not have women’s ministry and they were antagonistic to the idea. And so I said to the Lord, why have you brought me up out of Egypt to die here in the desert? And, and so I started teaching in my living room. And it grew to the point that the church, I don’t know why. But they eventually said, Well, what if you did that here, and I’m like, There’s an idea. So we built an airplane in the air to get it off the ground and running. And we we started the study. And it exploded on us, because there were all of these women who wanted this mothering space, right. And we didn’t have room for all of the breakout groups. And so the women met on shuttle buses. It is a legend now at my church that we use the shuttle buses for breakout spaces in order to get as many women in as we could. Two years in, we went to a simple church model, and they told us we would not meet any more. It was devastating. It was devastating. Personally, it was devastating to the women of the church, I had to lead through something that I didn’t agree with. This is all common knowledge. Now, if you’re thinking that my my boss at the village is like, why are you sharing this and we actually talked about it together in a talk that we do. But it was devastating to all involved. And it took six years, six or seven years before we were able to bring it back into the local church I taught at the Methodist church across the street from my home church 850 women. Were coming to the Methodist church across the street that you could see from the front door of my home church. I was traveling around the country talking about women’s Bible study and talking about Bible literacy. And there was not one environment in my own home church for me to teach in. It was probably the hardest six years of my adult life. And then the Lord brought something beautiful from it. But it was a long road. It’s a long road. I met you during that time. You did. Yeah.

Elizabeth Woodson
How about you, Courtney?

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, I think I’ve seen a lot thought of maybe smaller timeframes of that, working with a group of women who sort of pushed back against maybe some harder Bible study some more in depth study, and then watching that group grow, getting to work with a group of women who were just the culture. And the pressure in that particular church was to just do Bible study week after week after week, year after year after year for 40 5060 years, but never really live on mission. And so getting to kind of work over time to see how the Word of God actually knowledge of the Word of God is not the end game, in our transformation and living on mission is, is what God’s doing in us as he’s changing us. And so getting to see this group of women live more and more on mission, overcoming fears, overcoming obstacles, I mean, those are just such encouraging things. And I think Elizabeth, whenever I think about just even the nature of your question, it’s, you know, the him Oh, how I’ve proved him over and over. And it’s, it’s, he’s the one that’s proved himself. And so whatever it is that you feel called to I had a dear friend yesterday. Well, Vanessa Hawkins said that sometimes we’re just called out of obedience to go stand in the place, just go stand in the place and see what the Lord is going to do. And so it’s really encouraging to, to be able to look back and see multiple ways that he’s just been so faithful, to do what he’s going to do in the hearts and minds and lives of his people.

Elizabeth Woodson
That He calls us to the work and he’s always faithful to come through. And I think in the moments where we’re in the middle of the story, we haven’t seen the resolution come yet. One of the lies that we can internalize in our own mind is that it doesn’t matter that I’m here. And so what advice would you offer or encouragement would you offer to someone? And anyone can answer this? Who’s in the middle right now? And it’s like, I’ve given my all I keep showing up, I keep doing these things. And I don’t see anything happening. What would you say?

Rebecca McLaughlin
One of the things that Jesus had to teach his disciples again and again and again, was that leadership in his kingdom is not about power and privilege, but about sacrifice and service. And I think one of the ways that we can get all twisted up, is that we can think that most of ministry and most of fruitfulness is standing on a stage like this, and talking to you know, large groups of people. And that’s all well, and good and fantastic. And praise God, that there are, you know, opportunities, first are all gathered together like this. But in actual fact, I truly and deeply believe that, from the Lord’s perspective, the large majority of the most valuable ministry work that goes on is extraordinarily insignificant looking. It is, in fact, individual time you’re spending with women in your life, where you are pointing them to Jesus, where you are listening to them, encouraging them, rebuking them, correcting them, training them in righteousness, and having them do that for you as well. But for those in this room, who might think, you know, I wish I was doing something more public, in my local church, or in, you know, whatever environment. And instead, all I have is all these sort of scrappy little opportunities to talk to people here and there, to build relationships with people to, to witness to, to neighbors, or to accept into my house, people who nobody else is accepting into their house, that actually, like, make sure you keep your eyes on that. And don’t become discouraged by I’m not on a stage doing a thing, whether in my church or not. Now I’m saying this as a sort of complement to what Jen was just saying about actually the the beauty and importance of women’s ministry in the local church context. So don’t miss him. You’re saying none of that matters. There’s so much fruitfulness there. But actually, if we look around us, all of us have opportunities every single day of our lives, to minister God’s words to the people in our lives. And actually, Jesus is watching and he is using all of those things.

Melissa Kruger
Anyone else? I mean, I can just say this, I think y’all would probably all say this, too. There are things now because we do some of this that I can’t do anymore. And I miss those things. I miss having a small group of six women in my home. Like those were formative years for me. When people will say things like, how did you learn how to write questions for your curriculums? Like because I set a lot of really terrible ones. And I watched the blank faces of my friends and they’re like that is so not answerable and, and how great I am that six friends got to tell me that rather than In a Bible study that went out to 1000s, you know, and so those years are really sweet. I call them sometimes the hidden years of spiritual formation. And we just didn’t trust them to the Lord, because what matters is who we’re serving, not what we’re doing. And I really believe that. So I believe that when I was changing diapers, I believe that when I’m cleaning up after having a bunch of people in my home, I’m serving the king, whatever I’m doing, and that’s what gives it meaning. And that’s what we keep our eyes on, what I’d rather be a doorkeeper in your house. So Lord, thank you, I get to serve you. I don’t care what it is, just let me serve you. And I just think having that makes it all good. Because some days, I don’t want to get up here.

Jen Wilkin
What I call them the living room, yours too. And I think people think that you just snap your fingers and all of it. And I honestly, we live in a day and age where that does happen to some people. But, and I think to like, I know, you guys, actually, these are the people that we call when we’re having a hard day a lot of times. And I know for each of you and you know, for me that the the things that matter most to me, like from what I’ve invested my time and energy in are things that we don’t talk about from platforms because they are. So that’s not our story to tell, or you know, and that I don’t know that big rooms will ever know the most important things I wanted to give time to. And that’s okay. But you all have those stories, every single one of you, those are the most important things. And so just be encouraged that you’re not, you’re not missing something, when when those are your primary places of service. Those are the things that you will lay your head on your pillow at night and go today was a day that mattered.

Elizabeth Woodson
I think about my own journey, and think about the ways that I’ve been formed and shaped in many times in those seemingly ordinary places, and with other women who are willing to give their time their kitchen table their food, because I’m a single who doesn’t cook, and to give the good things in the everyday moments to me. And I think about women who called me higher when I was complaining too much, who prayed for me when I was just really sad and about whatever was happening in ministry, and reminded me about the better thing when my eyes were caught up into the glory of whatever the Lord the world was trying to provide. And so we’re going to end with this question I’d love for each of you just to share, who is one woman that has encouraged you and made you a part of who you are today.

Melissa Kruger
I mean, I’m gonna say the kind of Sunday School answer but these women, I mean, I can’t tell you. I had sent a Vox, which is a little walkie talkie app. In case you don’t know. To my team this week saying prepare for spiritual attack, it will come in a lot of different forms because we’re doing this conference. Well, the thing I got hit with and this is going to sound so dumb to everyone in this room is I was in the ER with my dog on Wednesday. Now for me and Courtney knew this. This is like our you cannot Gus. I mean, take my children, but don’t take my dog. Yeah. And I mean, which is terrible. Yeah, I mean, I’m terrible. I mean, they call it my kids call him our favorite child. It’s a real issue. And so I am you know, and she is checking up on me all the time. Like, how is Gus? I am praying, how is Gus? And it really is important to have partners in ministry who know you she knew why that was hitting me. And she also knows spiritual attack. But I mean, I can tell you, Jen, there was a time in my life that I was going through a crushing church situation crushing. There were two things she did. She took my call one time, which was like three minutes from going on stage and I’m like crying on the phone to her and I’m like, You didn’t have to take it while you’re going up on set. Yeah. But she did. And she also sent me a huge thing of ice cream and you’re I don’t know if you remember. I don’t know if you remember what you said is still remember you said with the bitter hear some sweet and you need people who know you because sometimes you cannot talk about it with anyone in your church context. And so it does matter to have ministry partners who may be on in your city, but they really can cheer you on and I’ve just seen it in all of this world. I mean, it really it really does help so build those relationships as you can across different churches and various things.

Jen Wilkin
Yep, yep. But also those people that you’re trusting with your heart moments, they need to not be people who will they need to grieve with you but they not they needed to not be aggrieved. Did you know what I’m saying? Like, you don’t want the person who’s gonna go, Yeah, your right to be super angry and you should stay angry for a very long time. And of course, no one says that, right. But there will be people who will want to who will not know better than to encourage the negative expression of what you’re going through. And like the women that I will trust my stories to, or people who I know will call me out, if I’ve turned down a negative path where I’m where I’m sort of like, building my own case, versus just telling what happened and needing help. And so those do need to, for me, those are people who, who know, who live in the same kind of space that I live in. But that’s not just this space. I mean, that’s like in my local church, there are people like that Elizabeth lives down the road from me, and there are things that you and I can talk about, that I don’t have other people to talk about with. And so it’s, it’s, it’s one person that one person probably can’t carry the weight. And it’s also Jeff, Jeff is like, you better say my name for all the free therapy. I gave you, woman. He Yeah, he knows all of it. And so whoever, you know, whoever those people are, they need to be people who will not just give you words of comfort, but who will speak truth to draw you toward, Hey, get up. Because this is something that I’ve really appreciated from the women who who helped me. They helped me to not stay. And Jeff, they helped me to not stay on the mat too long when I get knocked down. Because I’m not standing for my own sake, I’m standing for all of these women that I want to serve. And so sometimes you need to be reminded of that right? Get up, get up, get up, get up. And so yeah, you guys do that for me.

Melissa Kruger
And if you send the ice cream, it helps them get up off the mat. Just

Courtney Doctor
I want Jen to know that I’m going through a really hard time right now too. I’ll be home on Thursday. Just thinking about people that have been formative and encouraging. I just have a friend from St. Louis who is so faithful to send me Vasa we are on that Voxer app, raise your hand if you use Voxer because we live on it. So she just boxes me it’s just a little voice message. You know, I’m praying for you today and the number of times that it has been the Spirit of God moving her to say that is astounding. And so I pay attention when she reaches out and says she’s praying for me, she is a source of encouragement, but true encouragement, gospel encouragement, where she will call me on it. I mean, she’s not gonna let me get away with it, if it’s, if I’m feeling sorry for myself or moving in a direction that I shouldn’t. And so just those gospel friends that are willing to really speak into and do life with you, all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly, and point, point me point us to Christ.

Rebecca McLaughlin
I just want to say I’m the only person on the stage not cool enough to be Jen Wilkins, actual friend. We had lunch one time, and she told me I was on probation. So I’m just waiting to hear if I got it or not.

To add to almost nothing to what everybody is already very helpfully said, which is my calling in life. Having that people in your life, you know, just the most embarrassed like your shameful secrets, and the ways where you struggle, which anyone else would think we’re crazy. And they probably think is crazy, too. But like they still know you and love you. Having those people in your life who can say yes, I see you and I know you. And I’m going to pray for you. And I’m going to help you and I’m going to love you and encourage you in this moment. And having both of you both those things. Yeah, truth. The people who will love you enough to tell you the hard truths as well as to listen to you, when you just need to tell them all the things.

Elizabeth Woodson
Ministry is both beautiful and hard. And God has called us to the work and the work is dependent upon him not necessarily our strength and our ingenuity that we get ultimately the perseverance from the power of the Holy Spirit. So I hope by these stories that you learned that your struggles with pushing through aren’t just unique to you, we all go through it, but it is the community it is prayer or spiritual disciplines and ultimately, it’s a surrender to the Lord that I’m going to stay until you tell me otherwise. Thank you ladies.

Rebecca McLaughlin
I have a disclaimer before I speak, which that almost nothing that I’m about to say is from the Bible. So you can feel free to completely ignore it. Except maybe for the moment when I quote Psalm 23 But we won’t worry about that. Everything Jen said all Almost everything Jen said, I mean in the best possible way, almost everything Jen said was from the Bible. So I’m glad you had your best fresh ears for her. For me, as I say, you know, take it or leave it as you wish. But I have been asked to give a talk about how to give a talk that really kind of sticks in people’s minds. So if I give a really boring bad talk, you don’t remember anything of it’s actually quite embarrassing. So we just won’t talk about it afterwards. All right, that can be the deal between you and me. I want to tell you a story to begin with of time a few years ago, when the Lord did something, which at the time felt quite unkind to me. So I had recently had my third child. And I’d recently published my first book, and I was going to speak at a conference in England where I’m from, I was quite nervous about this conference, because in America, people think I’m intelligent, because I sound English. In England, I don’t have that kind of accent boost. And what’s worse, I was actually going to a part of England in the north of England, where my accent makes me sound like a kind of posh idiot. So I’m walking into the space. And I know that I’m going to give talks on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, this conference, my first talks on science and faith. My best friend in England, who is not a Christian, have very kindly come with me to the conference. And that first morning, you know, we had breakfast together a little hotel. And then I said, I’m just gonna go up to our room to practice my talk. And I went upstairs, and there I am. And I’m thinking, you know, I’m going to not look at my notes for about, I’m just going to sort of see if I can get my introduction kind of flowing in my head prior to giving this talk. And as I’m starting my pacing around my little hotel room, starting to think about my talk, there’s a phone call on the hotel room phone, and I pick it up, and it’s the conference organizers saying, Where are you? And I realized in that moment that whereas I thought I was speaking at 10:30am, they thought I was speaking at 9:30am. And I’m at a hotel that’s like a good half mile away from the conference center. I have not yet been to the concert, I didn’t know where it is. Okay. So I have to run out of that room. I text my friend just saying it’s now time for I literally run out of the room, I didn’t have time to find my notes.

I’m running down the street, I’m asking people, where is the conference center, this little northern village in England, you know, where’s the Conference Center, and I get there and five minutes, you know, maybe closer to 10. But like, somewhat embarrassingly late, I’m jumping up onto the stage and have to go 45 minute talk on science and faith. Did I mention the pot about without my notes, it’s horrifying. What I discovered was that I forgot all the parts of my talk that were quite forgettable. And I remembered, you know, my opening illustration, I remember the four main points I was going to make, remember the conclusion. And somehow by the Lord’s grace and mercy, I got through those 45 minutes. And I texted my best friend who is a Christian in America, and I said, this terrible thing just happened to me, I was like, thrown up onto the stage by the Lord to give a talk without my notes. And she said, Oh, I randomly woke up in the middle of the night, at the time in England, when you were given that talk with a strong sense that I needed to pray for you. It was like, pray for Rebecca. She prayed for me. And she went back to sleep. And I thought, Okay, Lord, I’m getting little, little message here, that maybe this is something that I need to get more comfortable doing. The reason I tell you that story, is number one, because I want you to know that in the hard times, as well as in the happy times, anytime you’re trying to minister, God’s Word, the Lord is with you. Even if it feels kind of unkind at the moment, even if you’re sort of he’s with you in the ways that he wished you almost wish he wasn’t with you.

And also to encourage you towards the first point that I’m going to make in this little talk here. Which is to take risks. And I’m going to break all the rules of Christian speaking by saying, Tony, I have five points, not three, not four, but five, are you ready. And the first one is take risks. Second is plant flags. Third is make metaphors. Fourth is tell stories. And fifth is create contrasts. But they’re all going to be very quick because I’m told I need to finish in about 15 minutes, I actually have a countdown clock so I can be sure I’m entering at the right time. And today, I just have a clock, so I have to be intelligent enough to figure out what the time is. So if I’m still talking and people are like falling off their chairs and dying on the ground, like when Paul was preaching for overly long, then just you know, somebody dragged me off the stage it will be better for all of us. So number one, take risks. When I stand in front of an audience, and when you stand in front of your audience, anytime you have the opportunity to do that, it can be tempting to think that unless we are really boring, everybody’s probably listening to us. It’s a little bit like I don’t know if you can imagine a kind of spotty, nerdy 13 year old boy who’s desperately in love with a beautiful gardener’s class. Like everything she does fascinates him the way she flicks her hair, the way she reads her book, the way she chats with our friends. When we’re speaking to an audience, we tend to think that they’re kind of absolutely tuned into what we’re doing. In actual fact, we are like that spotty, nerdy 13 year old boy who is desperately trying to get the audience’s attention. Otherwise, they are, in fact, not listening to us at all. They’re thinking about their dog or their boyfriend or their lunch, or whatever it is, they’re not thinking about us.

It’s a bit like, you know, when films when somebody is slowly bleeding out, and their friend is with him going, stay with me, stay with me, stay with me like this. If you don’t do that one way and another to your audience, they are not staying with you. And I’m going to prove it to you now. My guess is in this room, we have a room full of quite attentive sermon listeners, right? I’m guessing as well, we have a roomful of people who go to churches, where the preaching is actually pretty good. I guarantee that on Sunday morning, at some point you are thinking about your lunch, or your boyfriend or your grandchild, or whatever it is, or not, in fact, what the pastor was saying, Am I right? Your mind was wandering off someplace. And if you’re not fighting for your audience’s attention at all times, that is exactly what is happening. And however, brilliant and word soaked and wonderful. What you’re saying is, if they’re not listening to you, you might as well be reading the telephone book. So we’ve got to take risks, to make our audience actually listen to us. Now, why does taking risks help with that? I don’t know about you, but I love the Winter Olympics. I find it so much more fun in the Summer Olympics. Because in the summer, the question is, who is going to run the fastest? In the winter? The question is, who’s going to crash off the course completely? Or try one of those like spins that they do on the ice skating? And like for smack on their butts? Yeah, we’re watching because there is risk that something bad is going to happen. And as you watch me now you’re thinking, Oh, dear, something bad might happen.

She might completely forget what our next point is. Yeah. So you’re sort of watching with that slightly kind of maybe I maybe you would enjoy if I fell flat on my back sort of sort of feeling. But you’re watching, because I am taking a risk with you. I am also worried that I’m not going to remember what my second point is. So you guys might have to help me with that. Now, speaking without any notes, is not the only way to take a risk with an audience. So reflecting earlier, when the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King gave us incredible, I Have a Dream speech. He had his notes right there. The good lord knows he was taking huge risks as he stood there in front of that audience and said those things. So I’m not saying this is the only way to take a risk. But it is certainly one way to take a risk and to force ourselves to connect with our audience. Because in my experience, almost nobody wants to be lectured to. And almost everybody wants to talk. So in the various ways that we stand up in front of an audience and think I’m talking to a sort of faceless mass, and going to either kind of lecture them or or hide behind something, so that I don’t have to be confronted with them. We’re actually missing the opportunity to connect with the individual people in the room. And it’s in that connection that people actually learn. So number one, I would encourage you to take risks as you seek to communicate. Number two, is to plant flags. Now again, going back to that Winter Olympics, you know that I never quite know what it’s called.

But when they’re skiing downhill, and they have to that sort of sideways, sideways sideways thing. In between those flags, what’s that called? Slalom? Oh, that’s a cool word slalom, I use that again. The gentleman, the ladies who do the slalom as it’s called, they have to go down the course as quickly as possible. But hitting each of those flags, right. And the flags are kind of slender little things with a bright red, you know, standard or pointy thing with a bright red flag. On the top. I have all the technical language at my fingertips as you can tell. And as I think about preparing a talk, I tend to think in terms of what flags am I going to plant that will chart my costs down this little mountain. And that will help not only me, but also you to remember what I said. Now, thinking about those those faces, I said they’re quite slender. When the ladies and gentlemen bump into them. They sort of Swizzle to the side. It’s also very technical term swizzling and slalom.

And in my experience, if somebody’s talk points are you know, number one, Jesus is the sacrificial king who came to save all the world by His death on the cross for us. So wonderful thing to say. But if that’s point one, nobody’s got to remember it, let alone points 2.3, you need something that’s actually quite boiled down and sticky for them to remember what it is that you said. So I would work really hard on what your flags are. And here’s the beauty of planting those flags. As I said, not only did they help you to remember what I said, they also helped me to remember what I’m going to say. So when I was flying up onto that stage in the north of England, I at least knew what my four main points were. And so I could organize my turret material around them. And when I came to moments, and this has happened to me multiple times, in all the times that I’ve been speaking in front of a audience without notes, when I genuinely have forgotten what comes next, I take a pause, which for me feels like an eternity.

And for the audience feels like a sort of, you know, pregnant dramatic pause. And then if I can’t think what comes next, I just say this point again. Plant flags. And it serves as Repetition Repetition, by the way, is another really useful way of getting information into other people’s minds where we’re all actually going to remember it. And redundancy is your enemy in speaking and writing repetition is your friend. Think back to Martin Luther King’s I Have a Dream speech. He said, I have a dream. So many times I forget. It’s like 15 times. But there’s like more than 10 times. He also said Let freedom ring multiple times in the course of that speech. Repetition is a way that we can be also planting those flags in people’s minds. So if I stand up there, and I think I couldn’t remember what comes next. I set the point again. And usually the next thing comes if it doesn’t, I just move on to the next point. And nobody has any the wiser, except that now I’ve told you, you’ll know that when that happens later on this afternoon, you’ll know oh gosh, she just forgot what she was going to say next.

So number one, take risks. Number two plant flags. Number three, and here’s where we get closer to the Scriptures. So Jen will be proud of me. Make metaphors. What is the most memorable Psalm? Thank you, somebody Psalm 23. I know that was the answer all of you really hadn’t. Not the one that you’ve sat down to memorize. But the one that most people will think, oh, yeah, The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. That Psalms start with a metaphor. The Lord is the shepherd, David, and we as God’s people as his sheep. And David works through the psalm, sprinkling that metaphor along the way, He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, He restores my soul, his rod and his staff, they comfort me, we see that initial metaphor unpacked in various different ways throughout David’s short Psalm. And that is something that’s that’s sort of known in the the speaking trade as a central explanatory metaphor. It’s a metaphor that you you introduce early on in the talk, you come back to it multiple times in the talk, and maybe even end with not necessarily, but it’s something that gives people kind of central sense of where you’re going, and what you’re saying. And metaphors are a really powerful way for us to invite the audience to connect with what we’re saying, both intellectually and emotionally. Jesus use metaphors more than almost anybody else, if you think about it. Often with this famous, I am saying, I am the good shepherd, I am the light of the world, I am the true vine. And when we make metaphors, we invite the audience to to remember what we’re saying, and often actually to be moved by what we’re saying.

And here’s the good news with metaphors. A bad metaphor, is better than no metaphor at all. Now, let me qualify that slightly when I say it, but not one that is actively misleading. But whereas there is a platonic ideal of the metaphor that is very kind of emotionally evocative and powerful, and, you know, absolutely unforgettable in every possible way. Most of us when we’re sitting down to write a talk, or even to lead a Bible study, and we’re sort of trying to think of a good metaphor to illustrate what we’re saying, we may not instantly have those Shakespeare moments, we may just come up with a kind of mediocre metaphor, and that’s okay. I’ve sometimes when I’ve talked about how to give a talk, use the example of going to the grocery store, and getting all this delicious food, and then not having any bags to take it home in. And if you prepare a talk that is filled with biblical riches, but you don’t have any metaphors, or stories or sort of memorable ways for your audience to pick it up and take it home with them. They’re just having to leave all that delicious produce at the store. So you want to make metaphors, even if they are as unromantic as a plastic shopping Drag, which by the way as the metaphor I just use kind of a lame metaphor, but I’m guessing the you remember it because it’s sort of weird and lame. So let’s see if we can get the points. You’re gonna help me with this. Number one, take risks, number two, number three. Number four, tell stories. Not gonna spend a ton of time on this because it’s something that’s obvious in Jesus’s ministry. I was chatting earlier with some folks over lunch. And we were reflecting on the fact that some false teachers in our society today do a really good job of telling stories.

They Sam Harris’s and really unhelpful ways of thinking, have been packaged in great stories. And you know, whether it’s the story of somebody’s life, or just that they’re wonderful storytellers. And so it can make those of us who were deeply invested in God’s word feel kind of reticent to use stories. But actually, let’s not do that. Because who told the most wonderful stories? Jesus, right. So we should absolutely be telling stories. And leave that there. The last one, I hope do we get did we get to? Was that for excellent, fantastic. So the last one, number five is create contrast. I don’t like rollercoasters at all. But I do love my 11 year old daughter. And this last summer, we were at amusement park but had this big roller coaster and she needed somebody to go with her. And I said that I would. And the thing with roller coasters is they generally really fast, right? The velocity you in on average is very quick. But it’s not just helter skelter all the time, you have this sort of slow up to the top. And then you have that terrifying moment at the top where you’re like, ah, shivering and shaking, and then it’s down and up and round and all about Yeah. When you’re giving a talk, there’s an extent to which you want to be taking people on a rollercoaster ride, because remember, remember this, you got to keep them with you. And if you create the contrast between when you’re speaking quickly, and when you’re speaking slowly, and when you stop, maybe because you’ve forgotten what you’re going to say and maybe not, they just don’t know. It will give them that that roller coaster experience who will create the contrast. You can also create contrast in the ways that you that you form sentences. Famously, when Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon, he said, One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, creating a sentence paracentesis that had a contrast of ideas between the first and the second, we can sculpt individual sentences that give us that sense of contrast, and really borrow into people’s minds. So we need to create contrast, both in how fast we speak, how loud was speaking, how quietly were speaking and drawing them in.

And the rate at which we’re speaking, all of these can give them the roller coaster experience that keeps them with us. And lastly, it’s really helpful if you’re giving a talk to return to your opening at the end of this sort of sense of completion. So I’m going to finish off oh, wait a minute, I already Oh, this is embarrassing. Okay. I was going to finish off the first story by telling you about my friend waking in the night to pray for me. And I chose to do that rather than tell you the really embarrassing thing that was also true that day, but because I squandered that conclusion I’m gonna have to study the embarrassing one. As I mentioned, I had recently had my third child and those of you who have multiple children may know that it will be sometime after having multiple children running is not to be advised. If you if you want to keep your trousers extremely dry. So I literally had to make the decision in that moment as I was running out of the hotel room. Do I walk and revive 15 minutes late or do I run and arrive till five to 10 minutes late but with the risk of things having happened? So my last piece of advice is wear black or at least dark blue trousers so that when everything goes horribly wrong, you’re at least not completely humiliating yourself. Thank you.

Elizabeth Woodson
So I’m gonna start with a fun question. When y’all were children What did you want to be when you grew up?

Serious question. How did you come into this space of teaching the Bible? Did you go to seminary? Did you just come up in the local church, kind of what is everyone’s journey to the place that you are now?

Courtney Doctor
I was late 20s, early 30s, I had known the Lord for less than 10 years. And a pastor in the church where we were invited me to co teach a class with him. And he said he would we were going to teach through a book. And he would help me learn how to do it. And he did. And he continued to invite me into places to teach and encouraged me to do it. And I think that that initial encouragement was huge in and training and equipping, but giving me the opportunity. And then that kind of repeated itself. In my 40s, we went to see my husband and went to seminary together and which is why I always say we so I have to explain it cuz it sounds so funny. We went to seminary, I’m not using like the royal way we two of us together went seminary. And it was again, some professors that were just very encouraging of that and created space for me to do that in that setting. And so it was it was people creating space and inviting him.

Melissa Kruger
As I said earlier, I was I became a Christian at 14 and it’s 16. Yeah, how young life has that this campaign or groups? I don’t know if any of you there like the small group Bible study of young life. They decided to limit who could go to it. So only like eight special high schoolers could go to it. I was not one of those eight. So we decided at 16. We can do this. And so we just had our own. We called it campaigners, but it wasn’t with young life. It was just what we what we knew to call Bible study. And so we started our own. And I had no training, and really not. Yeah, and the Lord just kept putting me in places where I ended up saying, why not. And we just do it. And thankfully along the way, he has provided great training. But But I haven’t been to seminary, I call myself theologically homeschooled. And so I have a great partner, my husband, who we have a lot of great conversations, and I just really believe you can learn a lot just by reading the Bible every day.

Rebecca McLaughlin
I was coming to I was studying a PhD in in Shakespeare, love Shakespeare. And I was chatting with a friend who is my scariest non Christian friend. So like my other non Christian friends, I’d invite them to a thing at church and they would politely excused themselves. This friend would tell me why she was ideologically opposed to everything my church stood for. And she and I were chatting about what we might do next. And she has gone on to be a professor in her discipline. She’s fantastic. And I set her you know, I’m not half smart enough to make it as an English professor. Unless I sacrifice like everything for that, and probably not even that, but like if I would have to sacrifice everything for that, and I just I’m not passionate enough about studying English, which to sacrifice everything for that. She said, Well, what would you sacrifice everything for? And I said while telling people about Jesus? And then I thought, You know what? Maybe I should go to seminary. So I emailed the lady who was the women’s ministry at our church. And I said, I’m thinking I might go to seminary.

And I honestly, I was saying it kind of as a joke, like not as not exactly a joke, but I did it. Like the reason I’m doing this is because I was pretty sure she was going to say, I think you might not have noticed that you’re not a boy. And so you’re definitely not going to seminary. And she replied, and she said, Oh, I think it’s a great idea. I’ve already talked to Mark, our senior pastor, we’re like putting you forward and I was like, Oh, I was sort of joking. But then I thought the Church of England spends his money on a lot of really stupid things they might as well spend on giving me a theological education.

Jen Wilkin
So it’s just true. It’s just Am I your scariest Christian friend or?

Rebecca McLaughlin
No, but no, you’re auditioning.

Jen Wilkin
Trying, keep trying. It’s great. I was I have an English degree. And I come from a family of teachers and I thought, Well, I’m not doing what they did because I want to be important. Wouldn’t you have loved to have known 21 year old Jen? I was a delight.

So I I got an MBA and worked for Foley’s department stores, 55 retail outlets, and I was in the buying office for men’s dress shirts. And then I had my first child, and I quit my glamorous retail job. It was not. And I was invited, excuse me, was invited to my first women’s bible study at the church. And I needed a reason to put on clothes, and go somewhere. So I went, and I had childcare. And don’t get me started on the importance of childcare when you’re doing Bible study. But I seriously would not be a Bible teacher, if the church had not watched my child. So if your church could do it, I highly recommend it. And I was in a small group, and I was talking too much my apology to all of the small group leaders in the room. And Jackie Jackson ducked her head into my room and said, Can you come out here for a second? And I thought, I’m about to be sent home from Bible study. And she said, Have you ever thought maybe you have a teaching gift? And I was like, I don’t know.

And then she asked me to fill in, in her women’s Bible study her women’s Sunday school class, and then she ended up leaving the church. And she said, could you just do this until they find the replacement for me? And I was like, Yeah, I guess so. And I taught the class for eight years. And so I had to show up every week was something to say. And, yeah, it was just really formative for me. And so I sort of discovered who, who I was in that room. And, and then Jeff always likes to point out that I didn’t want to teach because it wasn’t lucrative. And then I taught for free for 20 years. So in honor of you, hon. And then and then with just learning, like trying to get educated, I knew how to I was a reader, you know, from from studying literature, I knew how to read books. So I was not intimidated to pick up theology books or anything like that doesn’t mean I necessarily was doing a great job absorbing it all. But for my 30th birthday, Jeff, the diehard romantic gave me Louis Berkhof, systematic theology. And that kept me out of most ditches. So

Elizabeth Woodson
I was working in business, I am an accountant by trade. So if you love numbers, and Excel spreadsheets, you’re my kind of people. And I was volunteering for my local church, and they needed somebody to teach Sunday school. And they asked me if I would teach Sunday school, and I just fell in love with it. I’ve always loved helping people understand things, whether that’s how to budget, their money, or how to read the Word. And we did inductive Bible study. And I was like, Man, I want to know more. And so 2010, I quit my job, so much stuff and went to seminary, and took a risk on the Lord, which is never really a risk. And just he kept opening up doors for me to serve and for me to come on staff at my local church. And a lot of times, what I’ll tell people is, it was the opportunity that nobody else wanted. And the Lord use me and grew me in those rooms to be able to learn how to teach his word. Rebecca, I’m gonna give this question to you, since you just told us all your wonderful little tricks of the trade of speaking, because it is a craft, right? And there are some really practical things that we have to do to form our messages and to be able to prepare to teach the Bible. And so when you think about practically, you know, outside of the five points that you gave us, what is what does it look like for you to be ready to do what you just did in front of us in terms of preparing to speak or teach the Bible?

Rebecca McLaughlin
Honestly, it really depends. So sometimes is just because of the nature of my particular ministry. It’s relatively rare that I’m asked to teach a specific passage or the Bible, like as a Bible passage. And it’s delightful when I love when I get to do that. And when I when I get to do that, it’s completely like everything has to be tailor made to that particular talk, because it’s all for that particular passage. Most of the time, when I’m speaking, it’s a little bit like when you make a meal out of leftovers, and you’re like, Oh, I’ll take the you know, the leftovers from there and the meat from there and I’ll put some soy sauce on and some, you know, boil some rice and here we go. So it’s not that every every element is prepared for that specific space, but it’s kind of taking things from different places, reorganizing them adding some fresh things so that they they fit and the longer you go on doing that the more leftovers you have, it’s like such an unromantic mess for and I’m sorry. But also if you only find yourself recycling stuff, I think it gets very tired and boring. And ultimately, you’re not really loving your audience well if you’re not putting particular attention to working to serve them. So Yeah, I try to just kind of continue to learn and bring that into what I’m saying as I go along.

Elizabeth Woodson
I think the best teachers are those who are listening to other great teachers teach. So we’re always refining our craft. How about you, Courtney?

Courtney Doctor
I think that well, and Rebecca and I have gone back and forth on this through the years. So I am a manuscript girl. So here’s where Rebecca and I agree, we agree with connection and risk. So the goal is to connect with Jesus people, we do agree on Jesus, agree on Jesus. So I am much more methodical about it. And I do predominantly just teach a passage that is I don’t do a lot of teaching outside of that. So I print it off, and I read it and read it and read it and read it and mark it and circle and make connections and start asking questions and thinking through it. And then I look at the structure of the text, because the structure of the message should match the structure of the text. And I put it out in that structure, and I start thinking about and a lot of times, I will actually write down, not that I actually go back and do all of these, but I will write down explanation, illustration application under each part of the structure.

Because for me, it reminds me I do not intuitively illustrate, I explain and I apply. And so if I want to have good metaphors and good stories, and all of those things, I have to put them in my outline. And then I start filling it in and I start thinking about it and, and kind of playing with it and trying to come up with the the ways that you can, you can phrase it in a memorable way memorable for me, and then hopefully memorable for anybody that I’m teaching. And a lot of times I’ll come up with this really finally fun, great, memorable way. And I look back and I’m like, That’s not actually in the text. And so you got to let that go and start over with that. But yeah, so it’s just a lot of, but for me, it’s it’s much more methodical. And then I ended up I ended up with the manuscript.

Elizabeth Woodson
Are there any kind I think every speaker has those like unique things you do in your process. And so you both are seasoned teachers, or there’s just new, unique things that you’ve learned to do over the years that work for your personality teaching style that you do every time to prepare?

Jen Wilkin
Well, I mean, I’m with, I’m with what’s her name? Sorry. With Courtney, with the repetitive reading, I really think that the most underutilized skill in both Bible reading and in teaching the Bible is repetitive reading, I will say it so my dying day, because you just have to give it time to start soaking in. And so I, I pray, Oh, my gosh, I teach sorry, guys, from an annotated hub, what happened? I teach from an annotated copy of the text. And so the work that I asked the student to do is the work that I’ve done to prepare the message. And then one of the things that I do to keep that copy I’m teaching from as clean as possible, because I’m a very visual learner. And so once I actually get an annotated, I can’t throw it away and start over, it has to be the one, I can use Whiteout, but I can’t. So if you’re wondering who’s still buying white out in 2023, it’s me. And then, if I need a cross reference, if I’m gonna go to a passage that is going to help with the passage that I’m in, I keep all of those pulled onto a separate page that has a little flag at the top, and they’re numbered, so that I can find when I need to bounce over to them when I’m teaching that way. I have less content right in front of me when I teach. Is that what you were that the kind of thing you were looking for? That’s great, thank you. Great, thank you. But I do not manuscript and I have a lot of opinions. I actually think most of my opinions about it are based on I think it’s your personality, everybody has to do what works for them. That’s the truth.

Melissa Kruger
I’m with Jen on repetitive reading. And I even mean that for the whole biblical text. Read it, read it, read it, read it. And here’s why. I mean, and I read it separate from my actual preparation to teach it. And I think that really matters just over the years. Just keep reading the text, keep reading the texts, because all of a sudden, you’re going to be walking in your garden, and you’re gonna see something happen, and you’re gonna like that’s the best way to explain that. You know, I’m sitting there doing dishes, and my plum tree is staring at me and I’m watching things happen. And I’m like, Huh? It just bears fruit and didn’t get to eat the fruit. It never benefits from the fruit. But it’s a plum tree and it just bares it, and I get to enjoy it. Now I’m having a whole conversation in my head about what’s the Lord doing a knee when I abide in him, and he’s bearing fruit. And I’m learning. Yeah, so all everything becomes my classroom, when I’m in the word every day. And when the whole world is my classroom, I’m going to have illustrations to share when I’m teaching a text.

And so being in the text every day is going to influence the way I see everything that God’s doing in the world. And it all starts to matter. It all starts to be things we can pull from that we can say, this is the way I can help explain that better. So I’d say actually being curious and confused about the text. Or going to you being personally curious. I’m constantly like, what is that about? Who are those giants? What are they called? Me? Like what in though? Yeah, all bad. Now see,

Rebecca McLaughlin
I have the word slalom.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Jen Wilkin
Do you mean the inophyllum? Because I’d love to talk about that. All of them. Just you could just reach on fish axon preach?

Melissa Kruger
I mean. I’ve written in my Bible for years, what are those one day I’m gonna research it. I just haven’t gotten around to it yet. And so just being continually curious about the text is going to help you as you teach. But then I’m, I’m a big believer in outlines. It’s the flags. Like, what am I going to hang this message on? How do I make sense of it. And so I’m manuscript, but I actually rarely read my manuscript, but I’m teaching because I have my flags. And so it’s there just in case because I’m not as okay with getting loss, just in case, I have my lifeboat ready to go.

Rebecca McLaughlin
So here’s the thing, I’m manuscript to, I wrote a fully wrote out the talk just for now. And I’ve filaret at the top of this afternoon, but I’m not gonna have them with me. And so something a little bit different will happen.

Courtney Doctor
Rebecca has been known to text me as I’m getting on an airplane to go speak, what are you risking? What are you risking?

Elizabeth Woodson
Courtney, I’m gonna ask you to give us some wisdom, a short piece of wisdom. Because understanding why we need to hone our skills and prepare to teach the Bible makes sense. If you think you’re going to do those things, and if you’re teaching to large groups, but what about the woman who says, I don’t want to teach? Or I won’t ever teach a large group? What encouragement would you have for her,

Courtney Doctor
we are all teaching the word, we are all teaching the word, you might be teaching it to another woman sitting at your kitchen table, you might be teaching it to a three year old, you might be explaining it to your neighbor. But we are all we all need to rightly handle the word of truth. And so understanding, you know, Melissa and I have taught a cohort for a couple of years and, and even the first time we did it, and she was talking about how even to facilitate a small group discussion, she goes through the exact preparation that I go through to prepare a message, because she wants to be ready to rightly handle the word of truth, truth. And that was really convicting to me. And so this, this place right here is really a very rare place to teach the Word. I mean, this is not even where I predominantly teach the word I. I’m in discipleship relationships, and I have grandchildren and children, and we’re speaking the word of truth to each other, and I want to rightly handle it. And as I preach the Word to myself, and I remind myself of the gospel, I want to rightly handle it. So I think we all are, we’re all teaching and preaching the Word in various faiths.

Elizabeth Woodson
Amen. Amen. Thank you ladies. Can we show them love for their wisdom?